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cat danny 25

Prefiring In Events

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I don't know who ran the campaign today besides Xal and Medic, but I noticed almost every single event character do it at least once. This thread isn't meant to be taken as a joke despite the length. I don't have a whole lot of evidence apart from the testimony of the entire server. I shouldn't need more than that because the entire server knows the admins do it. The admins know the admins do it. Can we please stop using ESP as event chars with the sole purpose of screwing people? I literally seen plasma particle effects hitting the corner before you guys even came around, and then as soon as you round it heads directly for somebody. This has happened on more than one occasion.

 

The server isn't fun if you guys literally cheat. It takes away from the experience when it's so absolutely blatant. You go from enjoying an event to pretty much saying 'oh, brother' because there's no longer just NPCs. I'm told admins can see if other admins have ESP on so it's literally not an excuse, it's just perpetuated bullshit. Your first thoughts as admins shouldn't be 'how many players can I screw?' There are people who lose their characters to this kind of thing and it's absolutely egregious to think of putting hundreds of hours into a character, only to potentially lose them to some jolly-roger with wall hacks.

 

It doesn't make the event objectively harder, it doesn't make the atmosphere more tense in a way that's beneficial. It's annoying, and people have literally expressed desire to skip certain admins' events because of either the ESP event characters, or the kill-boners.

 

Stop it.

 

There are some admins on the server who run some of the best events of all time with minimal casualties because the injuries make sense, they don't do things with the intent of killing as many people as possible. Some even shoot to miss, if you'd believe that.

 

I've personally spoken to a couple of admins who have admitted a desire to get better. I know that there are people on the staff team who want to see the server succeed and provide fun, compelling content for the playerbase - but that's never going to happen if bad habits aren't broken and a standard isn't set. It's not hard to police, if you can literally see who has it on and who doesn't. If you're spawning NPCs, I one-hundred percent think that you should have your ESP on so that you can keep track of who is where and pace your event. If you're an event character who isn't spawning NPCs and just gunning infantry, respawning and gunning again -- you have no business having it on. Just TP to them in observer, fly down the hall and come out.

 

edit;

 

To summarize before someone denies this on account of the fact that I didn't 'follow the post rules to a T'.

 

- Stop prefiring me and other players through walls.

- Turn your ESP off if you're an event character who does more than spout dialogue.

- Stop encouraging it, because other admins can see those who have it on.

- Its not cool to go out of your way to dick players.

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7 minutes ago, cat danny 25 said:

how many players can I screw?

I'm pretty sure they don't think in that way. It's more like "How many players can I screw before it's obvious and I get a problem with them" It's like killing a few so you still have the feeling it's war. If you kill too much they hate it and if you kill no one it's like a rainbow company without war. Also idk if it's wise to ran into straigt plasma fire. It's like supression fire. Only difference is that you firer before you see an enemy. Like the prog boss tolds their soldiers to fire down the that street until they run out of ammo. "Ehy boss why do we fire all of our plasma down this street?" "Because they will come some day from this direction my son." "And when this will take place boss?" "I don't know Jimmy, just spray and pray." But seriously. Sometimes admins have to relate on their powers to get it feeling like war. You can't screw up 30 people without any ESP or alot of NPCs you know what I mean? Sure it seems really awkward when Jimmy fires down the hallway without reason but his commanders command but sometimes Jimmys need to do that for more war. What is tho not-so-nice is a prog plyer with super-heavy cool weapons ESPing all the guys and firing with, let's say a 'nade launcher right in the middle of everyone. Or picking 5 players and fucking them up real bad. That not happend yet. And not let it happend. I'm fine with this post getting deleted maybe. And maybe forgive me.

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You can kill players without prefixing them through 4 walls. If you round the corner, acquire a target and your health is set to 300 like it is for most progenitor event characters, you're going to actually have to acquire targets the same way players do. It's not taking away from the experience, it just subjects them to the same element of surprise the rest of us have. It defeats the entire purpose of being in cover, NCOs setting up elaborate cross-fires or kill-zones because you're just going to get locked on through a wall and shot before your eyes even register that guy coming around the corner, given that he's shooting before he even comes around.

 

There is absolutely no justification for it. It doesn't make events better. Quality and effort makes events better. Spending time to create something you're actually proud of makes events better. It's why I enjoy Xal, Orwell and Deckers' events the most. Intelligent thought goes into it. The shootouts don't make them memorable. The characters, the events that transpire and the things that we do, do. Not a single event in my two years of playing in this community has been memorable because of the s2k, except for the time I nuked the entire server on T-Bone, which is still memorable for all the wrong reasons.

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Okay to picture it in my head, the guy is standing infront of a wall starting firing at the wall and then runs off to see his enemy? With a weapon capable of shooting through 4 walls. Sounds like a great tactic to me. When you have such weapons why not use them like this? Do not answer. Because of the poor fellas on the other side with no weapons capable to shoot through 4 walls and not seeing the enemy until he has decided to come around to corner to die. Danny I didn't saw it. But I think it's not nice to fuck us up so badly. Ever since the begining of events there are problems regarding how a event is running. And I'm sure you agree that some compromises have to be else all events would turn into really milky runs. But here it comes. I agree it's not fair to use these weapons in this way with ESP as backup. I'm sure nobody feels great to get sniped through a wall not even seeing the enemy behind it. And at the end of the day there will be a post under this saying "That should not happen, we will try to not do this again" And the problem will be solved.

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My opinion is.. why we not S2M(Shoot to miss)? All of us included admins and players. If there's PVP occured why don't we just S2M to created more fun and enjoyable moments not just "OH SHIT CONTACT! *Shoot and they're dead*" Why not "OH SHIT CONTACT! *Shoot and miss so they take cover and both of them exchange shots. Then they decided to go into more tactical and employs strategies to succeed.* "Why we don't use this systems may I ask?

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This goes back to the whole M9k during weapons debate,

BUUUT

 

Firing a weapon esspecially when some are known to crash people upon contact directly at a group of Infantry is asking for a disaster.

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I understand these complaints because it's really annoying to get mowed down multiple times on a mission. I don't know who's running around with ESP on. Personally I don't remember having ESP on when playing a Seperatist on a mission simply because it's more realistic. Especially when I'm playing a sniper or something, I even turn nametags off because it's much cooler just looking for grays. However, I do understand the purpose of running ESP while playing a mission. But this is why I usually have a clear seperation of roles - I usually only fly around on my missions while I have other admin henchmen do the dirty work for me.

 

a) You have more overview. You know when you hit somebody - and you know when somebody died. This is very useful for keeping track of deaths and potential injuries

b) You have more overview in the sense that you don't get silly surprises. Rct. John Doe joins the server for the first time, runs around and appears behind you somehow. Incredibly awkward, terrible immersion for those that see it.

c) Humanoid enemies are incredibly hard to make fun to play against. Either you spawn NPCs who wouldn't even hit a hangar or you have admins that go nuts with OP m9k weapons. But why do they go nuts?

 

It's incredibly, incredibly annoying to be spotted by players and be instantly killed. For some reason, the Morita and the M9K weapons are incredibly deadly to other players now, which I don't really understand. You get hit ~twice and pop, you're dead. You respawn next to the MI (awkward, especially with a progenitor model), you have to fly back in position, re-set your loadout just to be killed again 2 seconds after. I really can understand that some admins want to gain themselves a breathing room and wish to strike back.

Other admins have resorted to setting their HP absurdly high and noclipping after a few hits. This is a more sensible approach but I kinda understand why you'd feel fooled as a player. You hit someone a ton of times, just to have the same figure appear at the same spot after a while. OOCly, that's of course kinda ridiculous - shooting one figure just for the same figure to be resurrected, but I suppose ICly that'd count more as shooting a legion of enemies, except they are just embodied as one person.

 

To recapture the points:

  • Players shoot the shit out of admin characters
  • Admins shoot the shit out of player characters

Why?

  • NPCs lack the required 'skill' to pose a threat
  • Admins/humans employ tactics which may actually surprise the mission leader

Are sudden flanking moves a result of the ESP? (hey, there's nobody on this side, I should just attack from there) Maybe. Realistically, the enemy you are fighting has been longer in the AO than you; they know the place better.

Would NPCs make this better? No. I believe they would make it worse. They're computer controlled, which means they will have ESP and aimbot. Add to that that they will be spawned in groups, which gives you a bunch of cheating people in one tiny room.

 

As for your allegations of "how many people can i screw during my events" - I've never seen or heard of this happen. There may have been instances where an admin wants to make a mission more difficult by shooting more humans, but I absolutely do not think that there is any malicious intent behind it whatsoever.

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I'm not for a second advocating that player enemies are bad. I actually encourage them, I just don't like how blatant it is that they cheat. It 'cheapens' the immersive feeling that we all roleplay to feel. If admins are going to play with ESP on, they should at the very least be more responsible with it. My main concern is them shooting BEFORE they round the corner, and those shots going straight towards a player, giving that player absolutely no opportunity for counterplay.

 

To lay it out simply.

 

Admin A sees player B through a wall. He hovers his crosshair over him.

Admin A starts shooting the wall just before rounding it in full view of player B.

Admin A rounds the corner fully, still shooting.

Player B dies because before his brain can feasibly react to the information his eyes are seeing, he is dead because he was prefired.

 

That's the problem. That's what I mean when I say admins are out to 'get' players. You don't prefire somebody with all of your shots on target (with the intention of hitting) because you're trying to make the event fun. If the admins came around the corner and actually lined up a shot and killed me - I wouldn't care, because I had time to react and I didn't, that's my fault. What gets me is when the admins lock on to you through the wall and are pre-aimed at you and then hold down left mouse before they're even out of cover.

 

Anyone who prefires is out to kill players, plain and simple. You wouldn't deliberately go through all of those steps just to fire a few warning shots, or s2m.

 

It sounds absurd but when it all happens in the fraction of a second 10 or 15 times in an event you can see how tiresome it can become. You have to look at it through the players eyes and ask whether of not what you're doing is fun for them. If it's making their experience on the server you curate any better.

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The only time I use ESP as a shooty event character is when I'm trying to show the players "You're exposed" without necessarily killing anyone, specifically so I know I'm not shooting someone low on health which could lead to a severe injury or PK over what -should- be a "hey, watch out" signal more than an actual attack, which doesn't feel fair in my books.

 

Which is how ESP should be used -if- it needs to be used by someone directly attacking the players; not to get an upper hand on them, but rather to try to moderate the fire so nobody gets pinged in the dome by a sniper that they couldn't feasibly know was there prior to being shot at, or so they know where to place an explosive so it -wont- wipe the entire playerbase. At least, in my opinion.

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13 minutes ago, saiphun987 said:

My opinion is.. why we not S2M(Shoot to miss)? All of us included admins and players. If there's PVP occured why don't we just S2M to created more fun and enjoyable moments not just "OH SHIT CONTACT! *Shoot and they're dead*" Why not "OH SHIT CONTACT! *Shoot and miss so they take cover and both of them exchange shots. Then they decided to go into more tactical and employs strategies to succeed.* "Why we don't use this systems may I ask? 

While I will note I've been on wrong side of ESP sniping as both an Admin and a player, and that the Admin team as a whole seems to frown on the act. A lot of admins, at times myself included will just go with a S2K process because unless they set their health to something obscene like 10,000 then if they so much as appear out of a side door they'll be wiped out by a barrage of 22 damage per round shots. However, I know Admins who are wanting to do RP on their Event Characters have started changing their name colour to White so that it shows that they're a player and not Generic-NPC384181, and if they shoot it will a S2M scenario...Hopefully.

 

As for preshooting. While I can't speak for anything any one else does. I agree with Snow Wolf while want to add a prospective lore thing just for Progenitors?  They're a Hivemind due to all the Technological implants being routed to and from the Ark. If you shoot one around the corner. The Progenitors would know you're there. So they'll likely start a suppressing  the area their friend just died in, with most of the SciFi weaponry only dealing 6-7 Damage at a push. As for Seps, I don't feel ESP has much use beyond making sure you haven't run the other side of the MI to try and flank.   

 

This is my own personal opinion and as such cannot speak for any other admin or player on the server, before it starts a witch hunt against any person in particular. xD

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I see a great distance between realism and fun of the playerbase.

2 minutes ago, Admyral Joe said:

I agree with Snow Wolf while want to add a prospective lore thing just for Progenitors?  They're a Hivemind due to all the Technological implants being routed to and from the Ark. If you shoot one around the corner. The Progenitors would know you're there. So they'll likely start a suppressing  the area their friend just died in, with most of the SciFi weaponry only dealing 6-7 Damage at a push.

 

2 hours ago, cat danny 25 said:

You don't prefire somebody with all of your shots on target (with the intention of hitting) because you're trying to make the event fun.

 

 

From the lore and logic it would seem fine. After all the Progs are big powerful cancers. And yeah it seems logic that Jimmy supresses the area where their friend died. I'm sure they are not friends tho.

2 hours ago, cat danny 25 said:

Admin A sees player B through a wall. He hovers his crosshair over him.

Admin A starts shooting the wall just before rounding it in full view of player B.

Admin A rounds the corner fully, still shooting.

Player B dies because before his brain can feasibly react to the information his eyes are seeing, he is dead because he was prefired. 

And that tells me that the weapons do not 6-7 damage. I'm not sure but I think these weapons are still very effective. This is the point. Either lore-friendlier(idk if that's a word) or complain-friendlier.

Btw Joe you said it's fine to use logic and supress the area where another Prog died. You don't need to use ESP for knowing where the Prog died and where the enemy is maybe firing. But I'm not quiet sure if you meant ESP involved or not. If not forgive me. It seems to me if the Prog Players use actual logic they wouldn't need ESP to get the same result. They just need to think and look where the shots are coming from without standing right in the middle of No-Cover town.

2 hours ago, El Excellente said:

To recapture the points:

  • Players shoot the shit out of admin characters
  • Admins shoot the shit out of player characters

Why?

  • NPCs lack the required 'skill' to pose a threat
  • Admins/humans employ tactics which may actually surprise the mission leader

And this. Idk if you know the addon or if it's even on the server. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=897165898&searchtext=Proficiency+2

Idk if it will work but I think it's worth a try. So they actually hit something. Also NPCs can't be mean to anybody. And you can't make a NPC uncomfy. Bc an NPC doesn't care.

Still I think players are a great idea to act as enemys but please, no ESP or making them equal to the M.I. That results in overweaponry and is no gud.

 

ESP is good for the mission leader. ESP is good for much but not this. (The following is speculation) Place the Prog players down and let them think by themselfes. Maybe put all two or maybe even three Progs in one channel on teamspeak to give them their hivemind.

5 hours ago, Traitorverpackung said:

"Ehy boss why do we fire all of our plasma down this street?" "Because they will come some day from this direction my son." "And when this will take place boss?" "I don't know Jimmy, just spray and pray."

(Ever wondered if you can quote yourself? You can) And let these palyers be like Jimmy and his poor commander. Let them be a fireteam or whatever. That would make things more dynamic. But careful. Shoot2Miss would be important. And maybe enhanced tactics like supressing fire. Who knows, we never tried.

 

And please forgive me.

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I feel SW hit the nail on the head pretty well. I would like to add though, mainly pertaining to your first point:

 

As of the latest script change, it is no longer displayed to an admin if someone has their ESP on. 

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I didn't play the first day of the event, but I did play the last Pluto mission. (Progenitors.) The whole shtick with admins prefiring could simply be a natural response to people not taking the Progenitors too seriously. We all know that they're plasma toting aliens but nobody reacts that way. We fight them the same way we fight Separatists. We run around gunning them down and slinging M55's like they're parlor tricks. Even though it's been well documented and described that a single Progi' Thrall can literally rip a guy in half and give a Marauder a run for their money. Their weapons are also extremely dangerous, think of the phased plasma rifle from Terminator. (You know, the gun that goes VWHAP and turns rebel mcman into deadmcman.) With all these things in mind, the Progenitors come off as quality > quantity types with a real knack for having crack shock-trooper drones.

 

So you're probably asking at this point, if the Progenitors can do the above, why don't they? Why do we always fight them in droves? Because it simply isn't viable, at least not in the grand span of things. None of those things can be represented in the script. There isn't a /rip man in half command. The next easiest step is to just shoot the living hell out of the players. Ideally /events would be viable, but not everyone can type that quickly. Any experienced admin knows that every second you spend typing an event is a second the NCO's will spend pushing the Infantry up. Furthermore, crackshot NPC's aren't really a thing in Garry's Mod. Still, this isn't to say that the administrators haven't been at fault for doing this, but it'd be unfair to say they're doing it because they all have some raging blood lust. After all, every dead player is one that needs a teleport, a /roll, and equipment respawned.

 

Potential solutions for this could revolve around a shift from constant shooting -- But this isn't that viable, especially depending on the playerbase. No slight there, but it is admittedly boring to be in an event that consists of orange text. With that in mind, personalized /it's, /ca's and /events are a very good tool to affect the MI without gunning them down. The problem, however, is still the same as before. People move in the time it takes an admin to write an event, and then by the time the event is used, it doesn't make sense. Eg, a player gets killed in a way that warrants an injury, the player stands still while the admin types up the event, the rest of the platoon moves on, then the platoon has to send people backwards to grab the casualty. Those sorts of hangups happen all the time, and they only serve as an unfortunate detriment.

 

In the long run, the best thing you can do is /report when it happens, be patient, and try to let the admins know what's going on. Sometimes you'll get gunned down when peeking a corner, though your character might not necessarily full-body peek. Think of leaning in Arma / Insurgency. Some admins are keyed in on certain things and notice what the MI are doing better than others -- And vice versa. So cooperation is really your best bet for stamping these things out. ESP or not, people are going to get dunked on by the Sci-Fi weapons, so the alternative to script / gameplay related changes is to use the power of roleplay.

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54 minutes ago, Tony said:

I didn't play the first day of the event, but I did play the last Pluto mission. (Progenitors.) The whole shtick with admins prefiring could simply be a natural response to people not taking the Progenitors too seriously. We all know that they're plasma toting aliens but nobody reacts that way. We fight them the same way we fight Separatists. We run around gunning them down and slinging M55's like they're parlor tricks. Even though it's been well documented and described that a single Progi' Thrall can literally rip a guy in half and give a Marauder a run for their money. Their weapons are also extremely dangerous, think of the phased plasma rifle from Terminator. (You know, the gun that goes VWHAP and turns rebel mcman into deadmcman.) With all these things in mind, the Progenitors come off as quality > quantity types with a real knack for having crack shock-trooper drones.

 

So you're probably asking at this point, if the Progenitors can do the above, why don't they? Why do we always fight them in droves? Because it simply isn't viable, at least not in the grand span of things. None of those things can be represented in the script. There isn't a /rip man in half command. The next easiest step is to just shoot the living hell out of the players. Ideally /events would be viable, but not everyone can type that quickly. Any experienced admin knows that every second you spend typing an event is a second the NCO's will spend pushing the Infantry up. Furthermore, crackshot NPC's aren't really a thing in Garry's Mod. Still, this isn't to say that the administrators haven't been at fault for doing this, but it'd be unfair to say they're doing it because they all have some raging blood lust. After all, every dead player is one that needs a teleport, a /roll, and equipment respawned.

 

Potential solutions for this could revolve around a shift from constant shooting -- But this isn't that viable, especially depending on the playerbase. No slight there, but it is admittedly boring to be in an event that consists of orange text. With that in mind, personalized /it's, /ca's and /events are a very good tool to affect the MI without gunning them down. The problem, however, is still the same as before. People move in the time it takes an admin to write an event, and then by the time the event is used, it doesn't make sense. Eg, a player gets killed in a way that warrants an injury, the player stands still while the admin types up the event, the rest of the platoon moves on, then the platoon has to send people backwards to grab the casualty. Those sorts of hangups happen all the time, and they only serve as an unfortunate detriment.

 

In the long run, the best thing you can do is /report when it happens, be patient, and try to let the admins know what's going on. Sometimes you'll get gunned down when peeking a corner, though your character might not necessarily full-body peek. Think of leaning in Arma / Insurgency. Some admins are keyed in on certain things and notice what the MI are doing better than others -- And vice versa. So cooperation is really your best bet for stamping these things out. ESP or not, people are going to get dunked on by the Sci-Fi weapons, so the alternative to script / gameplay related changes is to use the power of roleplay.

Might want to encourage both players and Admins  to do something like "S2M" or Shoot to Miss. That would help and increase more time and fun.

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16 minutes ago, saiphun987 said:

Might want to encourage both players and Admins  to do something like "S2M" or Shoot to Miss. That would help and increase more time and fun. 

Typically, admins and players trade shots and whoever gets hit with the most fire (or powerful fire) ducks or skitters off. This tends to go out the window when someone S2K's, be it on the player's side or admins. Eg, you think you're S2M, so everyone misses, but some person S2K's. So that escalates it and sets the standard for all future engagements.

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I didn't read most of this, but as a rule of thumb an admin should empty about half a mag s2m around an exposed Trooper before hitting them with a few rounds. You don't take a killshot unless they are absolutely not getting it.

 

Example: 

 

Trooper A pushes upward into a small corridor

Holy shit! A Shotgunner has engaged Trooper A in close quarters, buckshot flashing all around them

Trooper A continues to push, he can take this guy

Shotgunner peppers Trooper A in the foot

Trooper A continues to push

Shotgunner gives him another peppering in the arms

Trooper A is full on leroy jenkins, pushing that cover

Shotgunner finally nails Trooper A in the head, as any monkey with a gun would in such time

 

 

That way, they earned the punishment of the red screen & rollarino. We are not a Deathmatch server, however that being said this is an action server centered around the death and destruction of war. Sometimes it isn't going to be fair, and sometimes its going to feel brutal. However, we as an admin team should not be striving to create an unpleasant experience for the player.   :)

 

Touching on ESP and admin usage

 

Firstly, there is no way one would be able to regulate or enforce against using ESP without adding to the workload of either the XAs by requiring us to constantly monitor ESP (when it's being used and when it isn't),  or to the mission making admin, who would be required to keep track themselves throughout the duration of their mission. In fact, this would put more of a burden on the mission maker than the extra helping hand on a mission would ease, thus discouraging admins from asking for help or from trying to run missions out of anxiety of dealing with all that shit. 

 

Secondly, admins sometimes are employing their ESP for more reasons than tracking players in combat. Sometimes they need to quickly find a new player that has joined, spot those who have died, or to keep track of other admins floating about. Taking it away from them would subtract more from their mission-making abilities.

 

While I understand, and heavily frown upon utilizing ESP to simply punish the players by S2K'n them over and over is toxic to a roleplay server, all we can do is handle it on a case by case basis. 

 

:D

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All I want is the admins to stop prefiring people. This is being taken so out of context.

 

@Durango

 

I do not want ESP taken away from admins running events.

I do not want ESP to be seen as a bad thing.

I want people who track me through walls and shoot me .1 seconds after popping out to be considered a bad thing unless progenitors can ICly see through walls. I know seps sure can't but they do it anyway.

 

Durango's example is good. More times than I can count they skip straight to Shotgunner finally nails Trooper A in the head, as any monkey with a gun would in such time .

 

My double AK csgo skills then kick in and I kill the admin, surviving with maybe 20hp.

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