PKs and If They are Being Done Right.

[cat danny 25]

4 minutes ago, OpTiCFaZeSoCkzZz said:

1. Not really true.

2. If an admin wants to give an injury but not take the time to monitor said injury and be sure that the very thing they put in their drop is done then that's their fault and they have no right to complain 

As someone who has been in medical for the better part of this server's longevity, I can promise you that I have to, more often than not, ferverously hunt down the admin doing injuries because they either skimp on the details or don't answer any of my questions as a medic that are 100% relevant to saving this person's life. Then after about 15 minutes they go on and tell me I either took too long, or my equipment does not do its job.

 

I've literally been fucking banned from the server before because I used my kit to circumvent injuries that the admins had inflicted on another player.

 

Oh no, he's choking on his blood. Give him a tracheostomy.

Oh no, he's bleeding from the aortal artery which you cannot throw a tourniquet on because it's in the middle of his chest. Stick an AAJT on him and huff it up with air. Pack the wound.

 

Better ban you because you're getting on my nerves with your roleplay, kiddo.

 

If you're going to change the PK circumstances, you need the majority of the admin team on board to participate, not just the few who already do this.

[Kraegus]

1 hour ago, Xalphox said:

mentioned during his appeal that another player had been let off a situation (like jumping on a grenade) that clearly ought to have been a PK - but was let off instead.

Maybe certain actions like jumping on a grenade should have either a negative roll modifier, as the action is deemed 'heroic', or should just be PKed. I remember when it used to be, which it may still be, "The more heroic actions tend to get PKs". I can see why Kebab would be a bit upset about that (I did read why they were PKed).

I don't think jumping on a grenade and getting shot should have the same chances of survival. One is jumping on a live explosive, covering it with your body to actively shield your comrades, the other is getting shot in a undetermined place until rolled.

[Xalphox]

27 minutes ago, Kraegus said:

Maybe certain actions like jumping on a grenade should have either a negative roll modifier, as the action is deemed 'heroic', or should just be PKed. I remember when it used to be, which it may still be, "The more heroic actions tend to get PKs". I can see why Kebab would be a bit upset about that (I did read why they were PKed).

I don't think jumping on a grenade and getting shot should have the same chances of survival. One is jumping on a live explosive, covering it with your body to actively shield your comrades, the other is getting shot in a undetermined place until rolled.

 

Admins can and should adjust roll bonuses to reflect the circumstances.

 

In a case like that, because I'm nice and because miracles do happen, I'd say anything below a 95 is a PK with something like that.

[Durango]

Where the fuck am I even tagged in this 

 

I read this whole thing  to find it

 

also; 

"waaahh make missions harder Q_Q"

 

"WAHHH THEYRE TOO HARD NOW :((((" 

[Whiplash]

There's a line between making them difficult and hard. Spamming overwhelming amounts of enemies doesn't make an event difficult - it makes it hard. Making it difficult has the enemy "utilize" the environment and work against you. Take up ridge lines, flank, surround, and attempt to either pin or destroy rather than swarm.

[Noviix]

If you are going to devote time into a server that is based around a game/movie/book/etc. which happens to revolve around a Military combating unworldly beings and huge arachnid forces and happens to also have an INSANELY HIGH mortality rate, you should expect this sort of thing.

 

However I believe medics should have a chance to pretty much save anyone besides terrible rolls like single digits.

 

That's not to say just kill everyone off with rolling, but with the way the events go in such a gung ho fashion without much time to slow down, it's very difficult for the medics to even have a chance to save people because if they do they'll likely be left behind.

 

That's what happened tonight with TSgt. Genevieve Vermillion, one wounded and everyone storms off INCLUDING THE APC, ends up in a death, maybe even two if someone is put at fault.

 

Personally I don't have a problem with rolling in this setting, but I do understand people's gripes about rolling, and do see room for improvement in terms of Medical RP and how it could prevent tons of "chance PKs" if they just had a little time and a chance to save their wounded. For those who might never have done MedRP, some medics truly love when someone is critically wounded and can get in-depth with their RP, under fire or not, it makes for a story and a badass moment if they pull their patient through.

 

Kind of rushed this, so it may sound stupid, I'll elaborate my points in the future.
 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

Let's agree first of all that the question of "how CKs should be conducted on the server" is entirely dependant on your perspective on the issue. No single, perfect way to go about it exists and the existence of this discussion is nothing short of proof of this. I have a proposal at the bottom of my reply for a fix, so if you're not interested in hearing me elaborate on opinions, do skip to it. With that out of the way, let's begin:

 

 

If I wanted an accurate depiction of war, one that shows it's "grisliness", and has people "dropping dead" at a moment's notice, or has the server sitting idly for hours to garrison RP, I'd play an Arma Realism server. Or Tarkov. Or anything that tries to be that.

 

Starship Troopers, on the other hand, has always been about theatrics. Every war movie ever infact, has been about theatrics. They exaggarate/twist facts of war to make the experience viewable. This is not a bad thing by any stretch - actual war is costly to film, unlikely to produce a compelling story, liable to being censored for actual gore and would only hold the audience of a few hardcore war-enthusiasts either way.

 

 

Roleplay, is even more so about theatrics. No RP server has ever been accurate to their respective setting. HL2RP has citizen factions that shouldn't even exist, CP divisions that sound like they were pulled straight from someone's rectum, and rebel factions that should be wiped in an hour but are instead allowed to exist in some far off corner of the map. HL2RP, much like movies, exaggarates/twists the facts of HL2 to make the experience playable. The very fact of this unit existing, even your characters existing, technically breaks canon. Any attempt to rectify this issue would a) Fail miserably and b) kill off any chance for player creativity in the process.

 

 

I think that instead of fighting a losing battle against simulating reality in a 10+ year old game engine that is also running a fictional universe, it's better to double down on Roleplay - that is born out of fiction, and Fun - that is born out of games. But where do CKs fit in all of this?

 

In the sidelines. As a single tool in the toolbox. Serving roleplay rather than, at best, needlessly interfering and at worst, impeding on it's quality.

 

There are tradditionally two ways of CKing I've seen that fit into this definition:

 

1) Voluntary CKs.

 

They happen, folks. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but they always happen. Sometimes the player just... loses inspiration. Maybe their IC friends are all inactive - RP after all is nothing without human interaction.

 

Maybe they're bored of their own character and hunger for something new. - I know I've felt this way before, and I'm absolutely not alone in that crowd.

 

Maybe they just do it out of conscience as @Archer said. 

 

Whatever the reason may be, In instances like these, throwing the character into the meat-grinder of war is an effective way to build atmosphere for other players while concluding their storyline. The fact that it's entirely under the player's consent minimizes drama and pushback.

 

 

 

2) As a punishment appropriate to it's mistake.

 

This is where things get tricky. We all know that  Private Jenny Rico from Buenos Aires should die a swift death for wandering from her squad. We all know that an NCO who twiddles their thumbs while a mormon church burns itself should be CKed with a court martial.  Beyond that, most things are a gray area, and I can see how /rolling could be a solution to that. What I don't see is how it's justified for anyone to lose something they've put thought into at the drop of a hat because "it's war. Oh, and you've been unlucky." Mercy is paramount, because at the end of the day, we're all a bunch of edgy teenagers/manchildren playing an outdated game, and shouldn't be expected to act with the efficiency of real soldiers. On the other hand, said game should be challenging, and there should be consequences for stupidity. But unless you're violating common sense, a PK does nothing to teach a player lessons about fucking up that a grave injury already couldn't.

 

 

My solution:

 

On every injury, a /roll modifier is added to the player by -20. It stacks up by the same number with every consequent injury, up to -100. Rolls below 10 are grave injuries. Rolls below 0 are PKs.

 

What this means is that if you're PKed, there's no denying that it was entirely your fault. If you take a wound, and you don't sit back, you violate common sense. Sure, there's still an element of luck. But there's also a greater degree of control given to the player; If you don't want your character dying, just avoid dying twice. It's not always obvious when you're about to die OOCly, and it's not always within your control to prevent that. But if you have already died once, it is obvious that you're in a dangerous situation, and it is in your control to prevent it from happening again.

 

The sole problem with this is keeping track of the players' negative modifiers. I think for this, simply reading up on /events, or noting them down on an admin-shared doc file, will do the trick. If that is too hard, removing the stacking effect and having every wounded person permanently stay at -20 would also go a way to lessen headaches. The list, of course, would be refreshed after every event.

[Noviix]

In all honesty if people just took the time to med rp themselves without carrying on through every mission like a tank they might see leniency in sudden /events detailing their death.

 

i think the amount of deaths currently per mission aren’t even that bad, it’s usually a result of stupid things person A and B did. If you are someone who gets shot a lot, killed OOC, or whatever it may be, and you rp injuries you should be given a little more praise for actually acknowledging that you are wounded and taking yourself out of the event for a little bit.

 

There needs to be a change of pace with that though. I rarely see events with enough down time or a relatively PK safe place to sit and med rp and I believe that is anti-fun and unfair. Not only does this encourage pushing through wounds to keep up with everyone and avoid PKs but with any other system it’d still encourage running ahead with everyone or you’re left wide open to a /event bug ambush or /event you are sniped for hanging back.

 

Though I do agree with@Appetite Ruining Kebab

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Appetite Ruining Kebab said:

The sole problem with this is keeping track of the players' negative modifiers. I think for this, simply reading up on /events, or noting them down on an admin-shared doc file, will do the trick. If that is too hard, removing the stacking effect and having every wounded person permanently stay at -20 would also go a way to lessen headaches. The list, of course, would be refreshed after every event.

 

I'm quite sure you're kidding about this. 

 

When you're trying to run an event, it is next to impossible to scroll through the logs, note every /event and /me repsponse and ensure people are doing things. Event runners work hard to keep the event going, and if I had to tab out to update a document every time I injured someone or every time they died OOCly, my events would stagnate, as would a lot of other people's. 

 

I typically run events by myself. I don't enjoy when other people help me a whole lot because sometimes said people tend to ruin my events, or take them places I didn't want them to go. 

 

I love the current system, as it brings concequences to actions. If you as a player is doing something that continuously gets you OOCly killed, you roll. If it's below the threshold, you die, if it's above you get an injury. 

 

I find it completely takes out the 'grey area' of injury vs. death and which should have been given and why. 

 

I have been subjected to the /roll system. I've lost a character that way, and I've also lost a character because someone else was subjected to it  and lost their roll after I friendly fired.  

[Archer]

25 minutes ago, Fitz said:

in my opinion.

others will disagree. most people will alt-tab while no shooty shooty is happening. can't please everyone. 

[Noviix]

16 minutes ago, Archer said:

others will disagree. most people will alt-tab while no shooty shooty is happening. can't please everyone. 

right so if they are gonna alt tab anyway, let them, it's an RP server, there should be some.

 

And by ONLY having 'shooty shooty' stuff, you are only pleasing one side when you could have both segments.

 

also let's not get off topic, its more so about pks not so much about event speed, i just brought it up to support my opinions.

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

1 hour ago, HazyDay said:

 

I'm quite sure you're kidding about this. 

 

When you're trying to run an event, it is next to impossible to scroll through the logs, note every /event and /me repsponse and ensure people are doing things. Event runners work hard to keep the event going, and if I had to tab out to update a document every time I injured someone or every time they died OOCly, my events would stagnate, as would a lot of other people's. 

 

I typically run events by myself. I don't enjoy when other people help me a whole lot because sometimes said people tend to ruin my events, or take them places I didn't want them to go. 

 

I love the current system, as it brings concequences to actions. If you as a player is doing something that continuously gets you OOCly killed, you roll. If it's below the threshold, you die, if it's above you get an injury. 

 

I find it completely takes out the 'grey area' of injury vs. death and which should have been given and why. 

 

I have been subjected to the /roll system. I've lost a character that way, and I've also lost a character because someone else was subjected to it  and lost their roll after I friendly fired.  

 

You misunderstand. You don't have to keep track of every /me or /event. You simply write down people who have /rolled below 50 (Assuming that's the injury threshold.) It's not hard at all. It's certainly no harder than having to stop every dead player to ask for their /roll, which we've gotten quite used to already. If your event's going too fast, slow down, or don't use it. If need be, I'll personally admin up for an event to prove it can be done.

 

 

If you as a player is doing something that continuously gets you OOCly killed, you roll. If it's below the threshold, you die. - There are two things wrong with this picture. 1) It's not always the case that the player is doing something to get themselves killed. Sometimes that something, happens to the player instead, and there's very little that can be done. and 2) There's no pattern in the rolling system that says you can be punished with a PK for continously dying. It's just as likely that you'll die on the first /roll. This is my attempt at introducing that pattern, which you actually seem to agree with, despite objecting to the perceived difficulty of my idea.

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Appetite Ruining Kebab said:

 

You misunderstand. You don't have to keep track of every /me or /event. You simply write down people who have /rolled below 50 (Assuming that's the injury threshold.) It's not hard at all. It's certainly no harder than having to stop every dead player to ask for their /roll, which we've gotten quite used to already. If your event's going too fast, slow down, or don't use it. If need be, I'll personally admin up for an event to prove it can be done.

 

 

If you as a player is doing something that continuously gets you OOCly killed, you roll. If it's below the threshold, you die. - There are two things wrong with this picture. 1) It's not always the case that the player is doing something to get themselves killed. Sometimes that something, happens to the player instead, and there's very little that can be done. and 2) There's no pattern in the rolling system that says you can be punished with a PK for continously dying. It's just as likely that you'll die on the first /roll. This is my attempt at introducing that pattern, which you actually seem to agree with, despite objecting to the perceived difficulty of my idea.

 

 

This exact situation happened two nights ago. My Marauder set Vermillion on fire with a flame thrower accidentally. Vermillion rolled a 4. Vermillion died. 

 

My character was given a CM, which resulted in 10 lashings, 15 years in a penal colony and dishonorable discharge. 

 

Things will happen to your character, like it or not. If it is death, it's death. 

 

I rather enjoy the way things are. Your system over-complicates things that don't need to be over-complicated. As admins, we should be looking for ways to promote efficiency in event running, not find ways to bog ourselves down with keeping track of things and constantly tabbing to add information into a spreadsheet. When we ask someone to roll after death, the process is relatively quick. They roll, we injure and move on with the event. 

 

As for those that are talking about event pacing. Event pacing is entirely up to the MI Drop lead. If you don't like the pace the event is going at, you can direct your comments/questions/concerns to the drop lead. Admins create events, give objectives and the MI completes/does not complete them based on the drop lead's timeframe. I've had missions that should have lasted one hour, last four because of drop leads. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Fitz said:

There is Shift+tab, and when you have a google doc open it would perhaps only take five seconds at the most to get a name down.

 

Shift tab doesn't tab me out of the game entirely. It opens steam. I don't use the steam browser for pages, as mine tends to crash my steam a lot. I would have to completely tab out of the game. 

 

So, yes, shift tab may work for some, but not for me. 

[Yuki || 日本語の悩み]

12 minutes ago, HazyDay said:

 

Shift tab doesn't tab me out of the game entirely. It opens steam. I don't use the steam browser for pages, as mine tends to crash my steam a lot. I would have to completely tab out of the game. 

 

So, yes, shift tab may work for some, but not for me. 

What about a piece of paper? I remember hearing that back in the old days of being an NCO you had to write down names of the members in your squad, so how is this really an issue? Don't even need to use full names. For example Rahman Decim: R.D -20.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Lalatina said:

What about a piece of paper? I remember hearing that back in the old days of being an NCO you had to write down names of the members in your squad, so how is that really an issue? Don't even need to use full names. For example Rahman Decim: R.D -20.

 

It boils down to, I am not going to over-complicate things by trying to keep track of numbers like that. Nor are other admins. As I said before, we're looking for ways to create efficiencies, not bog everyone down. 

 

The "keeping track of everyone's rolls throughout the mission" is a messy idea, at best. You not only have to keep track of the roles, but keep track of the RP going toward those rolls. If you've injured five people, there are ten people's /me's you're looking out for to ensure things are rolling properly. Constantly stopping to check the console and everything else to ensure everyone is RPing appropriately is time consuming and not conductive to running missions. 

 

The mission runner needs to be completely unencumbered. 

[Yuki || 日本語の悩み]

Just now, HazyDay said:

 

It boils down to, I am not going to over-complicate things by trying to keep track of numbers like that. Nor are other admins. As I said before, we're looking for ways to create efficiencies, not bog everyone down. 

 

The "keeping track of everyone's rolls throughout the mission" is a messy idea, at best. You not only have to keep track of the roles, but keep track of the RP going toward those rolls. If you've injured five people, there are ten people's /me's you're looking out for to ensure things are rolling properly. Constantly stopping to check the console and everything else to ensure everyone is RPing appropriately is time consuming and not conductive to running missions. 

 

The mission runner needs to be completely unencumbered. 

Most events should have atleast 2 admins running them in my opinion, so it's not difficult to assign Adminge #1 to keep track of rolls and keep tabs on the MI, while you, Admin #2 does NPC work and the actual events. Afterall, one man events already get bogged down enough, so I would asume you WOULD NOT USE THIS METHOD on a one admin event. But maybe a 2 - 3 admin event.

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

3 minutes ago, HazyDay said:

 

It boils down to, I am not going to over-complicate things by trying to keep track of numbers like that. Nor are other admins. As I said before, we're looking for ways to create efficiencies, not bog everyone down. 

 

The "keeping track of everyone's rolls throughout the mission" is a messy idea, at best. You not only have to keep track of the roles, but keep track of the RP going toward those rolls. If you've injured five people, there are ten people's /me's you're looking out for to ensure things are rolling properly. Constantly stopping to check the console and everything else to ensure everyone is RPing appropriately is time consuming and not conductive to running missions. 

 

The mission runner needs to be completely unencumbered. 

 

The /me's don't matter to you as an admin.

 

You see someone die, you ask them to roll. They roll an injury, you say "ok, this guy is getting -20 on his next roll" and write him down. That's it. You don't have to care about him until he dies again. You'll most likely remember his name anyway. I think you should give it a try yourself before making a judgement.

[Guest]

Just now, Lalatina said:

Most events should have atleast 2 admins running them in my opinion, so it's not difficult to assign Adminge #1 to keep track of rolls and keep tabs on the MI, while you, Admin #2 does NPC work and the actual events. Afterall, one man events already get bogged down enough, so I would asume you WOULD NOT USE THIS METHOD on a one admin event. But maybe a 2 - 3 admin event.

So says you. I hate having people help me during events. I hardly ever ask because what ends up happening is Adminge one fucks my event up because they've gone off the rails and done something dumb. 

Legit. You lot are trying to make things a lot harder than they have to be. 

The current system works. People are just getting salty because we were asked to make missions harder, and have more consequences to actions. We did that. Now the regret is pouring in. 

But also, don't forget, out of all the of admins, I tie with Orwell for blood thirst. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Appetite Ruining Kebab said:

 

The /me's don't matter to you as an admin.

 

You see someone die, you ask them to roll. They roll an injury, you say "ok, this guy is getting -20 on his next roll" and write him down. That's it. You don't have to care about him until he dies again. You'll most likely remember his name anyway. I think you should give it a try yourself before making a judgement.

 

I am quite literally not trying to keep track of negative rolls while I'm running a mission. I do not have time or energy for that. Not at all. I handle things as they come through. Someone dies, they roll, depending on the roll, they get injured or die. 

 

The current system works and it works well. Stop being salty because you lost a character. I've got more names on the wall of remembrance than everyone except Orwell in this iteration. 

[Deck]

1 minute ago, HazyDay said:

So says you. I hate having people help me during events. I hardly ever ask because what ends up happening is Adminge one fucks my event up because they've gone off the rails and done something dumb. 

Legit. You lot are trying to make things a lot harder than they have to be. 

The current system works. People are just getting salty because we were asked to make missions harder, and have more consequences to actions. We did that. Now the regret is pouring in. 

But also, don't forget, out of all the of admins, I tie with Orwell for blood thirst. 

Seems counterintuitive, aren't you part of a group of Staff members that should be expected to co-ordinate with the other staff?

[Kraegus]

If an event run can keep track of the numbers, good for them, but it shouldn't be a requirement. They are already doing a lot and have a lot to already memorize and remember. First event I ran, with the help of a friend, we were barely able to keep up with the MI and plans kept changing. Sure, one could have a piece of paper next to them, but when the list grows and one has to search for names, things on server will be missed and plans will have been changed without the event runner being able to intervene. 

 

Also, how will an event runner know a person has died? Often event runners will say "/report us that you have died" to which many people (I presume) don't do. They are a bit too busy running the event and the basic trust people may instill upon one another to say they died generally is betrayed so people can keep their characters  nice and safe.

 

Event runners aren't going to sift through logs and go "AHA, AT 7:38 YOU DIED, YOU'VE DONE IT NOW BUDDY!" and people are going to get pissy with each other if they learn others are telling admins a person died (Example: A dies, doesnt say shit. B tells admin. A gets injured, A finds out B said something, anger ensues.)

 

While I do think players who died over and over should be penalized, its just a bit hard to follow through with a solution that works for everyone. If you can keep a list, go ahead, but dont hold everyone to the same standards. We don't hold all events to the same standards, or at least we shouldn't.

 

For now I think the roll to die systems works, but some modifiers (such as I stated in a previous comment) should be applied here and there. 

 

I don't know how many of you have run events (those who are calling for change that is), but I do know that those who tend to be fighting for the system to stay the same are the ones who, ya know, run the god damn events. If they can change, let them, but if they can't, don't get pissy with them.

[Yuki || 日本語の悩み]

6 minutes ago, HazyDay said:

So says you. I hate having people help me during events. I hardly ever ask because what ends up happening is Adminge one fucks my event up because they've gone off the rails and done something dumb. 

Legit. You lot are trying to make things a lot harder than they have to be. 

The current system works. People are just getting salty because we were asked to make missions harder, and have more consequences to actions. We did that. Now the regret is pouring in. 

But also, don't forget, out of all the of admins, I tie with Orwell for blood thirst. 

I love having harder missions and the such, I've pk'd tons of my of my own chars on my own will. I think the system is simple, but, the reason the system we have no is WONKY is due to how injuries are played. Adminge #1 does /event Pvt. Jenny Raco gets shot in the leg., Adminge #1 will then fly over and say "Roll" and you roll a 4. Wel, low and behold that's one below the PK margin, so that bullet that passed through the leg with the medic attending to it immedielty kills you because hurr duur.

 

 I think PK thresholds make no sense, the lower the roll the worse the injury. We all know simple veins and arterys in the arms, legs, chest, and so on. So maybe instead of saying,"Roll", then u roll and get a 4 and badda bing die. You roll a 4 and something major is hit and the medic is then told,"This is hit.", and you are given maybe a .. 20 minute timer to fix it, and so on. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Deck said:

Seems counterintuitive, aren't you part of a group of Staff members that should be expected to co-ordinate with the other staff?

I do coordinate with other staff memebers quite frequently. I work quite well with the other staff. I assist on their missions and occasionally ask for help running mine. More frequently than not, I do not ask for help. Many staff members don't ask for help in running their missions. A few prefer no help at all. 

 

My own missions are usually simple enough that I can run them on my own. My style isn't huge theatrics paired with prop building and complicated orders. 

It seems counterproductive to make staff start to track something ridiculous, when we've already got a system in place that works rather well. If it were something that made the current system more efficient, I'd be all for it. But the idea isn't efficient, and doesn't assist the mission runner in any way other than adding yet another thing to keep track of. 

 

[Kraegus]

And lets say an event runner does find out someone died a ways back and it shoulda been their death to end all deaths, the time has kinda past for that to happen. If the person doesn't die again and makes it home, well nothing is going to happen. If the event runner tries to bring the death to bare, they may be accused of targeting. Its more complicated than. "I sees death, I makes note and makes dem roll."

 

*this is an addon to my last comment, the forums didnt tell me you lot talked more