PKs and If They are Being Done Right.

[Detective British]

We could just get Gr4ss to code a plugin that lets an admin know in console with a small notification that a player has died and they automatically /roll upon being respawned?

 

Sure it could be annoying at start of missions with respawning people, but at least you wouldn't have that "Missing people dying." thing happen.

 

Idk, I'm just a ***** with a rocket launcher

[Archer]

checking to see if a person died is as easy as checking the console if you see someone dropped. besides, most of the times people will ask for a teleport anyway.

 

[Detective British]

34 minutes ago, Archer said:

checking to see if a person died is as easy as checking the console if you see someone dropped. besides, most of the times people will ask for a teleport anyway.

 

 

 

Aye, but that confuses me then on how a person could die 4 times and then on their fifth death be asked to roll.

[Archer]

because it wasn't noticed by the event runner or because he decided to let it slide. i don't think you'd be happy if you died on the dropship's ramp and were asked to roll, and then rolled a grave injury and that was it for your character in this event. 

[Xalphox]

Don't die and then you won't have to roll at all.

 

Arachnids attack whoever is closest to them (as someone rightly mentioned). So long as you aren't closest to them, they won't attack you. Ergo don't be closest to them and you'll survive. Hell even if you are closest to them - retreat behind somebody else and suddenly they're somebody else's problem. 

 

Skinnies and separatists are a little more difficult - but not by much. The NPCs are still fundamentally pretty fucking stupid - they spawn, stand still, shoot, pause, perhaps move 3 meters, then shoot again. On the rare occasion that they manage to actually hit anything, they inflict single digit damage per shot. Don't isolate and overextend yourself, take cover, especially when you find yourself below 30 HP, and they become somebody else's problem.

 

And if you find your health precariously low through normal wear and tear and attrition: voluntarily seek out a medic, have them roleplay healing you up, and then report for an admin to set your HP. Hell - if there are no medics around, roleplay bandaging yourself up or something and an admin will give you at least some HP. 

 

Now admittedly sometimes admins overestimate the strength of a squad and they spawn too many NPCs and the squad gets massacred - we try and avoid this because it breaks immersion, but it does happen even to the best of us. Once again my expectation in such a scenario is that the admin would exercise their discretion and let everybody off - failing that, me and the XAs would vacate the PK at appeal. Though just to assert - if you are the only one who dies during a wave, that almost certainly means you are the one at fault, not the admin. 

 

Sometimes players die and they manage to sneak back without an admin noticing without having to roll - everybody right now has a chance at that. Lucky them. If you have that big an issue with it, snitch on them and report it - but expect people to start doing the same to you when you die without an admin noticing. Sometimes an admin exercises their discretion and chooses not to make a player roll at all for a death like for example when it is due to circumstances beyond their control or etc - that is their prerogative: if you think they are being too lenient or too harsh, there is always the appeals/complaints forum to address this. 

 

Also, we (as an admin team) will not be maintaining a database of every character and their past injuries. It is an unnecessary overhead on an already fast paced and intense environment.

 

Finally I just want to once again assert that on top of the <=5 rule that I follow, I also inflict critical, life threatening injuries for people who roll below a 20. These are the kinds of injury that CAN be treated, but could still end in a PK - and you are THREE TIMES AS LIKELY TO RECEIVE ONE OF THESE THAN AN INSTANT DEATH. More than half of the PKs I have inflicted this week have been due to untreated/poorly critical injuries, or critical injuries where the drop lead has decided to A11 them vs seeking treatment.

 

And at the end of the day, the odds of you being PKed are still only 5%. Assuming every critical injury ended in death (spoiler: less than a quarter of them do), you have an 80% chance of survival. And you still have to actually put yourself in a position where you die first.

 

 

 

[Kraegus]

52 minutes ago, Xalphox said:

Arachnids attack whoever is closest to them (as someone rightly mentioned). So long as you aren't closest to them, they won't attack you. Ergo don't be closest to them and you'll survive. Hell even if you are closest to them - retreat behind somebody else and suddenly they're somebody else's problem. 

[Lizgflynn]

1 hour ago, Kraegus said:

Pretty much 

[Tonic]

Before any other replies are made, I'm warning all participants that any further posts that are seen as nothing short of attempts to insult others' capabilities or lack of desire to adapt to an unproven system will result in post-bans from the forums (read-only access) for up to one week.

 

SSTRP prides itself on being a bastion of free speech, and we do encourage the playerbase to speak about problems they feel like could be resolved (i.e., this thread), but keep your insults out of suggestion threads.

 

All members of the community who have joined in on this topic are ones who want the success of the server-- treat each other with respect even if you don't agree with their ideologies or methods of accomplishing a task.

 

[Brand1065]

The following is my opinion.

 

My belief when it comes to PKs is that a PK should never be an option for every injury, cut, scrape etc. I believe that a PK should only be an option when:

 

A: The player has done something stupid OOCly to put that character in a deadly position. For example: Trying to pull a meme and running around an enemy tank, or yelling Leroy Jenkins while rushing a marauder.

B: The person has RP'd that the character is being put into a deadly position. (Some people might just want to RP injury/PK and so will do something intentionally daft in RP)

C: A PK has been requested by that player for that event. ("Sick O' this character" Syndrome.)

D: The situation that the character was in would be generally considered by most as a deadly situation, including, but not limited to: Intense gunfire, fire, missile strikes, vehicle-related deaths (Military vehicles, not Old Farmer Johnson's tractor), falling from a large height and crushing injuries where somebody is/has a limb trapped under a heavy object. (I especially believe this last one is important, as people may not realise it, but getting your leg crushed by a heavy rock can be extremely deadly.)

 

For example, if somebody gets shot in the foot/hand, they should not have to roll for a PK, considering a foot-wound is something that can be treated easily, and people in World War One were doing it to themselves in order to get out of combat, and the medical knowledge of that time was probably not even a quarter of that of the MI timeline.

 

Things like dismemberment (Losing a hand/foot/limb) should be a definite roll for a PK, considering the huge amount of blood loss.

Also, things like where somebody decided it would be brilliant to walk out in front of a tank's machine gun, or the turret, or a squad of enemies. A 50.cal+ MG would tear you to shreds, as would a tank shell, as would 3 or 4 enemies, or a sniper shot.

 

When it comes to staff members playing as event characters whom have the aim of shooting at the M.I, it should generally be considered that they should not be out to cause PKs, more add a "real threat" to the situation, rather than just fighting droves of AI, that even the AI in Rome Total War II would consider to be awful, over and over and over. Things like snipers - Everyone should be aware that a sniper would most likely carry a big gun, that does a lot of damage, and would most likely rip through standard MI body armour or even the helmet. - So in this case, it is not only down to the staff not to go COD Pro MLG and 360 Noscope every player he sees, as aiming a sniper in RP would actually be difficult to get a perfect shot, or would at least take some measure of effort, and to act like a proper sniper, but it is also down to the fact that the characters need to be smart, or risk getting their heads blown off. For example: People who see fit to stand around in the open.

 

Another thing that irritates me from time to time is how you can take lots of considerably BS damage from various sources (Props moving and hurting you, falling from a height that is bigger than a 60cm ruler, "backwards Morita" and OOCly unintended damage perhaps from somewhere else), and then you take one shot from an enemy and that's it, you gotta role for a PK, whereas every other more fortunate player who hasn't fallen victim to Garry's Mod's glitchy and buggy engine gets to take more hits before they gotta roll.

 

Most staff members are okay with setting your health to 100 for this, however, there are the few who are either too busy with the event, too busy playing, or just generally don't seem to want to answer the call for whatever reason.

 

When it comes to rolling to receive an injury, following things should be taken into account:

 

Body armour.

Type of round/object causing the damage.

The weight of the object.

Is that object blunt/sharp?

How fast that object is travelling

Where it is most likely to hit. (For example, someone leaning out from a wall risks their head, arms and maybe neck/upper chest.

How deserving that situation is of a life-threatening injury. For example, a chair hitting someone in the chest after being thrown by a skinny is unlikely to cause a life-threatening injury.

 

Last Thoughts:

 

Another thing, on top of everything else, is that players should be graceful when taking a PK. There have been many times where I have seen people get PK'd for what is seen as a legitimate reason (Such as getting a rocket to the chest, mutiny, etc) and then whine about it to everyone, and then complain when their appeal gets denied.

 

It is obvious that player characters will be PK'd, pretty much every character will either come close to it or suffer it at some point in SSTwoRP, whether the player wants it or not. It's one thing to have a rant and blow off steam about it, but I strongly suggest that the minority of players whom do complain need to have a better attitude towards PKs. It's alright to get upset about it, as most people will likely put in a lot of effort towards a character, and then to have that all taken away in one fell swoop can hurt, I'm just so glad that on this server the community doesn't retort via the words "It is only a game, don't cry." as that never helps at all. Because as much as it IS a game, it is still something where a lot of effort and time and emotion has gone into that character.

[Yuki || 日本語の悩み]

This thread needs to get Pk'd already.

[Archer]

4 hours ago, Brand1065 said:

When it comes to rolling to receive an injury, following things should be taken into account:

 

Body armour.

Type of round/object causing the damage.

instant fucking no. promotes arguing over '.308 can't penetrate type 4 armor, void the wound!!!' stuff. 

ideally you should worry about that only when shotguns are invovled, but bottom line is shotguns at pointblank means trouble.

[Brand1065]

4 hours ago, Archer said:

instant fucking no. promotes arguing over '.308 can't penetrate type 4 armor, void the wound!!!' stuff. 

ideally you should worry about that only when shotguns are invovled, but bottom line is shotguns at pointblank means trouble.

Type of bullet should be taken into account, at the very least. Because if someone is using a peashooter or lower-calibre weapon and shoots someone in the chest from 100m then damage is going to be different to 5.56x45 at 40m.

[Archer]

only on a case to case basis

given the fact most admins love to buff the fuck out of separatists, and did it in the past, i personally assume the basic insurgent has the same morita the MI get, especially since now it's former MI too

if the event runner is using m9k ak47 it doesn't mean it is the ak icly, and using m9k against players is on their conscience

[Noviix]

An issue I've been seeing is a lack of continuity from admin to admin when they run events.

 

Xal seems to do everything by the book, enforce the roll system, while some others will just neglect it entirely or use it sparingly.

 

Which granted is fine, however, it's hard to pinpoint an issue with a system if there is no clear system.

 

It'd be a lot easier to distinguish whether or not there is a truly a problem if it was a bit more clear and standardized.

[Archer]

as i said, event runners having complete freedom is both the blessing and the bane

i prefer it as is since you can change something in your own system if it doesn't work

[Noviix]

3 minutes ago, Archer said:

as i said, event runners having complete freedom is both the blessing and the bane

i prefer it as is since you can change something in your own system if it doesn't work

 

I agree with that but continuity in a system is important especially when a lot of people think an issue lies in said system.

 

And if some admins find that there is a flaw they should bring attention to it as this thread started to do, but it seems that hasn't gone too far.

[Guest]

On 4/2/2018 at 5:25 PM, Noviix said:

 

I agree with that but continuity in a system is important especially when a lot of people think an issue lies in said system.

 

And if some admins find that there is a flaw they should bring attention to it as this thread started to do, but it seems that hasn't gone too far.

The reason why it has not gone far is simple. 

 

Event Runner is King. If the admin running the event chooses not to participate in any roll system, it's up to them if they choose to, it's their perogitive. 

 

The admin running the event has complete and total control over their event and makes the decisions. 

 

This will not change. It borks continuity, but it is the way things are ran at SSTRP. 

[Noviix]

1 hour ago, HazyDay said:

The reason why it has not gone far is simple. 

 

Event Runner is King. If the admin running the event chooses not to participate in any roll system, it's up to them if they choose to, it's their perogitive. 

 

The admin running the event has complete and total control over their event and makes the decisions. 

 

This will not change. It borks continuity, but it is the way things are ran at SSTRP. 

 

Simply saying, "this will not change" shuts down any chance of conversation and doesn't make anything seem productive.

 

If you want to make an argument that the event runner is king because it's their event, anyone can simply deny a PK because it's their character.

 

Pushing a PK System on a Per-admin basis in my opinion is an awful idea and I am frankly confused on to what will get me killed and what won't.

 

Few examples:

 

On a Cipher event I can get unlucky, roll from the DROPSHIP, the START of an event, and be out for the entire thing. I sat in an APC for 2 hours, then was told I had to sit for another OOC hour in the medbay.

 

On an Archer event I can roll a 2 on my first death and it can be completely negated without injury while people drop to the left and right of me. I'm not complaining, I kept my character intact and albeit I'm fine with it, I'm just showing the drastic differences.

 

On a Xal event, I can roll a 6 and get severely injured, create pressure, and have a medic required to attend to me or I will die.

 

On another admin's event, a team can clear a room, the admin will noclip inside, kill an unsuspecting player, and ask them to roll.. They rolled a 1 and died.

 

I've had an experience where someone has been locked in a room, peeked me in noclip, unlocked the door without RP, and killed me and asked for a roll where I could have possibly been PK'd.

 

These 5 examples have all happened to me or someone I can vouch for in the little over a week that I have been here, I should not have to study event running patterns to know when my character might have the plot armor of a god or be a lamb to the slaughter or some in-between. Sure, saying "event runner is king" covers all bases and pushes away the problem, but I don't think anyone should have to put time in a character and then have this much uncertainty. If you want to breed some uncertainty and chance, just implement a roll system similar to Kebab's, if you don't, don't use a roll system and figure something else out but let their be discussion.

 

If you want my say on a solution ; perhaps just chill on PKs entirely. If someone dies, tell them to MedRP, if they don't and negate their wounds, /event kill them. If someone dies more than once but has medRP'd, maybe say they need to really steer from combat for the rest of the event or they might die. If they run from the group, warn them if you want as the event runner or kill them.

 

Take this as you wish.

 

These aren't meant to make any administrator or anyone look bad, I am simply stating them for the sake of the argument here.

 

TL;DR: Far too much uncertainty on an admin to admin event running basis.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Noviix said:

 

Simply saying, "this will not change" shuts down any chance of conversation and doesn't make anything seem productive.

 

If you want to make an argument that the event runner is king because it's their event, anyone can simply deny a PK because it's their character.

 

Pushing a PK System on a Per-admin basis in my opinion is an awful idea and I am frankly confused on to what will get me killed and what won't.

 

Few examples:

 

On a Cipher event I can get unlucky, roll from the DROPSHIP, the START of an event, and be out for the entire thing. I sat in an APC for 2 hours, then was told I had to sit for another OOC hour in the medbay.

 

On an Archer event I can roll a 2 on my first death and it can be completely negated without injury while people drop to the left and right of me. I'm not complaining, I kept my character intact and albeit I'm fine with it, I'm just showing the drastic differences.

 

On a Xal event, I can roll a 6 and get severely injured, create pressure, and have a medic required to attend to me or I will die.

 

On another admin's event, a team can clear a room, the admin will noclip inside, kill an unsuspecting player, and ask them to roll.. They rolled a 1 and died.

 

I've had an experience where someone has been locked in a room, peeked me in noclip, unlocked the door without RP, and killed me and asked for a roll where I could have possibly been PK'd.

 

These 5 examples have all happened to me or someone I can vouch for in the little over a week that I have been here, I should not have to study event running patterns to know when my character might have the plot armor of a god or be a lamb to the slaughter or some in-between. Sure, saying "event runner is king" covers all bases and pushes away the problem, but I don't think anyone should have to put time in a character and then have this much uncertainty. If you want to breed some uncertainty and chance, just implement a roll system similar to Kebab's, if you don't, don't use a roll system and figure something else out but let their be discussion.

 

If you want my say on a solution ; perhaps just chill on PKs entirely. If someone dies, tell them to MedRP, if they don't and negate their wounds, /event kill them. If someone dies more than once but has medRP'd, maybe say they need to really steer from combat for the rest of the event or they might die. If they run from the group, warn them if you want as the event runner or kill them.

 

Take this as you wish.

 

These aren't meant to make any administrator or anyone look bad, I am simply stating them for the sake of the argument here.

 

TL;DR: Far too much uncertainty on an admin to admin event running basis.

 

The Event Runner is king will never change. It's just a matter of fact. The XA's and @Xalphox do not want to hinder mission runners in any way shape or form. 

 

While I understand you are asking for consistency as far as injuries and PKs, it is unlikely to happen because each admin is allowed to do what they want within the parameters of our missions. 

 

This is why your experiences are so varied. 

 

Unfortunately with our current model of mission running, the inconsistency will still happen. Admins have argued for and against our current model for years now. Xal does not want to change it. At the end of the day, he is the one that pays the bills, so what he says goes. 

 

[Archer]

so y'all wouldn't think this was abandoned, i did some testing and this shit's feasible but with some adjustments on the go, because on the 1st event i'd have to pk 4 people had i been going off this suggestion verbatim. on the 2nd too. most of them rolled 15-20 or even 6-20 on their 2nd death, which'd mean a near grave wound or a PK for them. 

[Durango]

Too much work

 

let it die